David Ackerly opened the discussion by telling the 50-plus audience members that holistic legal services focus on the needs of the client as a whole person.

Katie Danielson said that holistic legal services have been offered in San Francisco for approximately 25 years. In San Francisco, she said, every eviction case includes a mandatory conference with a social worker. One of the problems is that clients are usually unaware of the agencies that can help.

During settlement conferences, clients are asked to make some sort of plan. Generally the client is in the midst of a crisis, making substantive long-range planning a challenge or not possible.

If necessary, the San Francisco Volunteer Legal Services Program will do a full-representation eviction response. The goal, however, is to transition to long-term case management with another agency.

The San Francisco group can also identify extensive social services for clients who need more long-term involvement. With their five in-house lawyers, the Volunteer Legal Services Program helps those in desperate need of social services, including SSI advocacy, mental health, and substance abuse. In addition the program does homeless outreach, helping homeless individuals sign up for housing, and later working with them as they come to the top of the list for housing to make sure they have support that will help them stay in the apartment.

In addition to the five staff lawyers, the program has social workers and social work interns. It also makes use of the services of volunteer psychologists and retired social services staff. All staff receive training in how to ask intake questions in a sensitive manner, knowing that they will not find out everything they need to know at one time.

One challenge for the program is the different confidentiality and disclosure standards for social services professionals and lawyers. Maximum case loads are a concern for both lawyers and social workers.

David Ackerly said under LSC guidelines, legal aid offices need to be separate from other services, meaning at times the services from the Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles are not as holistic as they would like.

Ackerly said his office is trying to do more for veterans in the area of family law. This fall they are hiring a person who is a JD/MSW this fall who will focus on homelessness and youth at risk.

Immigration is a huge issue in Los Angles, along with the 55,000 to 60,000 eviction notices sent annually. Ackerly said his office tries to take a holistic approach to the evictions. They are looking at changing their model. Right now, "We're not even halfistic, let along holistic," he said.

The Legal Aid Foundation of Los Angeles recruits volunteers through a Web site with a goal of trying to obtain at least two to three lawyers from law firms. He hopes to do outreach with some of the biggest hospitals in Los Angeles.

In Los Angeles, Ackerly said, there are approximately 88,000 men, women and children on the streets every night. Gentrification is creating huge problems. Like the San Francisco program, much homelessness is caused by substance abuse and mental health issues combined with a lack of SSI benefits.

Sharon Browning said that the whole idea of collaborative services is so new in Philadelphia that there is no data.

She had worked on a study of homeless prevention program in New York City that combined the services of a social worker and a lawyer with funding from United Way to develop a long-term solution for the client. There is a study to try to determine which clients will be able to cope once the immediate crisis is over and which clients will sink into homelessness.

In Philadelphia, Browning said, the Volunteer Lawyer Program is the hub of a large and unique public interest community. Their role is to make connections to make sure people get services as fast as possible. She said they do not have a social worker on staff. Instead, they trained staff on finding resources to match with client needs. Her office has no staff lawyers, only coordinators.

She said there is a broader system issue on addressing the underlying causes of homelessness. Are we addressing them and what should our process look like? How do we make assessments accurately when dealing with complex problems, she asked? Maybe thinking about it in terms of a holistic approach and working with others is the answer.

Browning said it is also important to look at the training lawyers receive. "Sometimes a legal solution is not the best one," she said. As an example, she said she knew of a client who has periodic psychotic episodes. Lawyers kept him in his housing situation, but by doing so he was able to avoid treatment. Is that wrong or is it just an incomplete solution? "We get so fixated in working through the law that if we have a legal fix, we want to use it," she said. "We need to ask what we are doing and why and if that is the best for the client."

She noted that some lawyers say holistic services are great and others say the holistic approach takes too much time and that they could do 10 times the work with a quick legal fix. "We know that a person will get help with an eviction, but without social services help, evictions will keep happening," because the underlying issues of hoarding, abuse or non-payment are not addressed.

Browning's goal is to have several lawyers involved on the same case so they can pass the baton and avoid overwork.

Danielson said in the 1960s public interest law moved our society forward and public interest is still important at some law schools although not as much as it had been. She sees a growing need for integrated or holistic services. "We want to help people receive SSI benefits, but many of the clients who are mentally disabled feel there is a conspiracy, and that they are putting themselves at risk by giving their Social Security number to a lawyer.

She pointed to a number of law schools that are starting to offer joint degrees with social work.

Danielson said in addition to homelessness, domestic violence cases are the main reason people come to her organization. She said it's hard to work with victims of domestic violence, but once there are long-term solutions in place for custody, support and equitable property settlements, the success rate is high.